a very interesting meeting

[aryanhwy]

Today I met with the headmistress of the Chorister School to address one of my last remaining concerns: The uniform. At St. Margaret's, girls have the option of wearing trousers, but the Chorister School uniform mandates skirts for girls, and for many reasons, from ability to climb/play/act as desired to reasons of feminism, I struggle with this idea.

I wanted to hear in person what their reasons for it were (in particular since they don't require their female staff to wear trousers), and also whether there was any possibility this policy would be considered for change. The answers were pretty unequivocal: Tradition, and No, but we had an extended discussion of associated issues (such as the fact that for gym, athletics, rowing, etc., girls CAN wear shorts or sweat pants; the fact that private (i.e., British "public") secondary schools will have a similar dress code -- and now I am curious what Durham Johnston (a state school) has; the fact that she has never witnessed any girl feeling like she must act differently as a result of wearing a skirt rather than trousers, i.e., for feeling like she must be "ladylike"; and others), and one item struck me as a way I can perhaps wrap my head around the issue: That part of the uniform is to encourage children to view school not as a place for play but as a place for work; one dresses up for one's school day in the same way that one does for one's job, and that, for these children, school is their "job". I put it in scare quotes, because perhaps "purpose" is a better word.

I suspect I will eventually come around, in part because if this is the ONLY thing that bothers me (I still need to write a post on this "if"), I don't think it's a deal-breaker. Certainly, it's less of a deal-breaker after having talked to the headmistress, which is part of the reason I wanted to speak with her in person.

Comments

[kareina.livejournal.com]

Do they mandate the length of the skirt? The reason I am grateful not to have attended a school with uniforms is that the skirts that I have seen school girls wear are just way too short to look comfortable, especially when it is cold out. If the students have the option to wear ankel-length skirts (if they want them, of course), then I am ok with it.

[aryanhwy.livejournal.com]

There's only one length, but the tights they have for winter are quite warm and cosy looking (and thankfully Gwen is not one to baulk at wearing tights. I never liked tights as a child.)

[hrj.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting issue. In some ways, if feels awfully outdated to me. I graduated high school in 1975 and that was the first year that the San Diego Unified School District stopped requiring girls to wear skirts. (Not a uniform -- just a dress code.) Compulsory dresses for K-12 (well, technically K-11 for me, since I graduated early) was a large reason why I avoided wearing dresses under any other (non-costume) circumstances for a very long time. (Starting in kindergarten, I'd change into pants as soon as I got home from school.) Even though I did shift to wearing dresses on occasion eventually, I still get my back up if there's any whiff of it being a social expectation/requirement.

[aryanhwy.livejournal.com]

Outdated, definitely. Like I said, the answer that was given was "Tradition", which is outdated almost by definition.

I remembering being uncomfortable whenever forced to wear a dress as a child, but I think this stems more from not liking to wear dresses. Gwen at least seems to choose skirts and pants roughly equally, now that she's in charge of picking out her own clothes. So I think that adjusting to wearing only skirts -- especially if all the other girls are all wearing only skirts -- could be less difficult for her than I would've found it.

[silme.livejournal.com]

The British state secondary schools in my area all allow girls to wear trousers or skirts. It's only the hoity toity fee-paying schools that are stuck in the past and require skirts only.

When I was in elementary school in the US, I was forced to wear skirts or dresses to school daily, except for a gym day. I loved gym days! I hated having to wear dresses. Fortunately for me, that rule changed when I hit junior high. The school district went from a very strict dress code for all students (even boys in high school couldn't wear jeans -- only nice, tidy trousers, and even the sock colour was prescribed) to pretty much anything goes.

Nowadays, not permitting trousers seems very outdated and I wonder how it might work with more and more students coming out as transgender at a young age. There could be lawsuits based on the Equality Act. Perhaps the fee-paying schools will just tell them to go to state schools.

[ormsweird.livejournal.com]

Really? All state schools? I think she might be out of touch in that one. As well as one of our vet practices being opposite the Johnston I know I've seen a ton of girls in trousers. And indeed a quick search showed that their dress code includes trousers for girls.

Eve wears dresses because she prefers them. She has trousers and wears them when it's cold or tipping down though. She also gets on with tights, which I find horrible!

[silme.livejournal.com]

Yes, the state secondary schools around here pretty much all allow trousers or skirts for girls.

Something that comes to mind, though, about this head's idea that school is for 'work' and, therefore, the students must dress accordingly, is how, when I worked at a state secondary school here in Hampshire (best in the league tables for the county), on rare non-uniform days, other teachers would comment about how wild the students were in terms of behaviour. However, I never noticed a difference. Perhaps it's what you're used to. Maybe they expected them to misbehave out of uniform and I didn't.

Now, of course, I teach in FE, where there aren't any uniforms. It's one thing students love about leaving school. :)

[aryanhwy.livejournal.com]

Like I said, I put 'work' in scare quotes because it's not quite the right word. I think better is the idea that school is not a place for play, and that's an idea I can get behind.

[aryanhwy.livejournal.com]

I doublechecked my post (I still have to actively think to make sure I don't mix up terminology), and I didn't say that all state schools, but rather, the public schools (i.e., ones that would be "private" in the US).

St. Oswald's seems to be in this weird gap between state and public, and as far as I can tell, they also only have skirts for girls.

[aryanhwy.livejournal.com]

I checked, Durham Johnston (state school) does allow trousers for girls. But I came away with the impression that public secondary schools are unlikely to be that flexible.

And your conclusion in the final paragraph is almost certainly right: As an independent school, they can stick to Tradition as much as they want. Tradition is part of what you pay for.

[silme.livejournal.com]

I'd have to re-read the Equality Act. I'd researched it and talked with advisers at the EHRC to advise the SCA Grand Council regarding British law and the ban on single-gender crowns. The SCA would not be considered a private club under the law as anyone in the general public may join. As these schools may be selective (as opposed to taking anyone who gives them money), they may have more leeway regarding the law, but I have a feeling that even if they don't come under the act, there will be pressure placed on them in the future.

I honestly never saw a difference between the students when they were in or out of uniform. The well-behaved students still behaved well and the students who were apt to act out still tried to do so. On the other hand, whilst some really wanted the freedom to wear whatever they wanted, others admitted they didn't have to worry about peer pressure regarding clothing nor did they have to worry about what to wear in the morning. :) Some kids still tried to break boundaries -- girls wearing heels higher than permitted (they were given plimsoles to wear instead), girls wearing far more jewellery than allowed (it was taken away and then returned at the end of the school day) and boys and girls trying to wear trainers instead of school shoes (plimsoles again were used) etc. Heads of year kept make-up wipes to remove excessive make-up from some girls as well.

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's really good that you had this meeting. A lot of sexist, racist practices can hide behind the label of tradition. But I also don't think G. will be harmed by it, nor would I personally make it a deal breaker. I like to dream that having parents question the tradition might someday lead to a change in it. --Bunny

[aryanhwy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, part of me would be happy if simply by starting the conversation now, something changes in 5, 10, 15 years. Part of me also thinks that if she goes to school there, I may find there are other like-minded parents, and that if we start talking with each other, this may help moment go.

A thought that crossed my mind sometime after the meeting was a question of dominance. Choosing a school is important, because it will provide a tremendous influence on her, whatever we pick. But out of the school/child pair, which do I think will be the dominant one? Do I think that school will dominate Gwen, or Gwen dominate school? And when I put it this way, I'm pretty sure it's the latter: Our choice of school will direct and influence her, but it's still HER that's being influenced, and I'm pretty sure that she as person cannot be overridden by any external force.

[jf-scientist.livejournal.com]

I find it slightly distressing that they think girls can't dress up for work in PANTS.

Of course, I teach at a military college, and TRADITION might as well be engraved above all the doorways, and there is an abundance of stupid uniforms. (I can wear whatever I want as I'm not 'regular staff.')

[aryanhwy.livejournal.com]

Well, the female staff do wear trousers, some of them, so it's not a matter of women not being able to work in pants. The issue of viewing school as "not a place for play" is more reflected in the fact that they have uniforms, rather than in the particular type of uniform.

A friend did point out to me that there is a sense in which the status quo is more equitable than one in which girls are allowed to wear trousers if desired: Because while the school might be willing to allow that, they are probably still at least a generation away from being willing to allow their boys to wear skirts (sadly), and if they allowed girls choice but not the boys, THAT would be unequal.